*not_secure_link*timesonline.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/14/amd_newyorkercover.jpg

 

Chicken out again??

You casually blame Israel for creating terrorism and then walk away smugly. Tell me when the last Israel car bombing in Cairo was. How about in Amman. Now tell me the last Israel suicide bombing of an Arab bus or shopping center.

You are showing your ass as a sympathizer with murderers.

 

A+

 

Stumbler these are some of your posts in this thread defending the terrorists.

The following is the first quote of yours in this thread that made any concession to the guilt of the terrorists. It comes real late in the discussion, and is quite weak in light of the others. But you ignore the crowds standing in the street cheering as the SKUDs rained down on Israeli soil, the hundreds of acts of terrorism perpetrated by Islamic fanatics throughout the world, not just in Israel.

 

tenguy; who?

 

In my younger days when I still believed in God I tended to side more often with the Jews because I saw them simply as backward cousins and I'll admit to thinking the Muslims in the region were, for the most part, ignorant dirt farmers prone to violent outbursts of irrationality. In my mind the land really did belong to the jews, god had given it to them and even if they were going to hell, for the time being their name was on the deed. So therefor, while they might not always have been just in their actions, individual incidents were not as important as the struggle as a whole. Their cause was the right one and if their righteous path took minor detours along the way it was seen by me as, while lamentable, still acceptable. Cost of doing business, as it were.

Jump forward a few years to now where I have taken off my religious rose-colored glasses and I view things a bit differently; I tend to see things through the long lens of history, now. I see their individual faiths as the poison in the well from which they all drink. Both sides interpret the deed differently and the rosetta stone they use for the deciphering is their belief in their respective holy books. And unfortunately god is not around to ask exactly who's name is on the deed. Thus, their dilemma. You see it as simply the Jews being a big bully but that answer is painfully and dangerously simplistic.

On the one hand I sympathize and understand that the Jews would be so stingy with giving the Palestinians much control or power for fear of what they might do. Westerners, Americans especially, have a notoriously short-term memory where as people from the old world think in terms of centuries, not years or decades. To the Jews, the time when they lived under the lash of Islam, while to our mind was close to a century ago, to them is still very much part of recent memory and a very real possibility. They have had their independence now for only 50 years and have fought several wars to keep it in just that short amount of time. This has no doubt colored their outlook on the world. They have literally been fighting a racial enemy for their entire lives. Men and women have been born and died, their entire lives spent on watch. Try to imagine what it would do to you, Stumbler, if every day you woke up in a military state, every day you were on guard and had to raise your children to maintain that same awareness because every day you were under the threat of attack.

(Now, it could be argued that the Jews asked for it by living in the country that was created somewhat artificially and displacing so many people, but since that action has very little to do with the overall picture, I don't consider it relevant. There were tens of thousands of Jews living in the region before Israel was formed, most of them on land that was purchased legally from the controlling Muslims of the day. This was no help against the pogroms that they faced on a regular basis. The pogroms existed before Israel was formed and were it not for Israeli military might, would still exist today. Israel as a nation state is just a convenient excuse now used by Muslims to attempt genocide.)

After the June '67 war Israel went through a great deal of effort in order to figure out just how to live along side the palestinians since prior to that Trans-Jordan (now just Jordan) had controlled all of the Palestinian territory. They interviewed numerous people of authority among the Palestinians and all of them disagreed on how it should go so even at the outset the Palestinian people seemed incapable of co-habitation if only for the simple reason that they couldn't even get along with each other. Israel had no desire to be an occupying force, they simply wanted to be able to secure their borders from further attacks that they new must be coming. (Indeed, Addul Nasser, the ruler of Egypt and the primary instigator in the '67 war, was already planning the next attack before the ink was even dry on the cease fire. We know this today as the Yom Kippur war.)

From the ashes of those conflicts arose Yasser Arafat, probably the single biggest inhibitor of peace that one could possibly imagine. Here is a man who practically invented the airline hijacking and suicide boming. A man who brought Jihad in to the 21st century. A man who took almost all the aid that came in from Israel and the West and either lined his own pockets or used them to buy munitions to arm the Palestinian Liberation Organization. A man who never had any intention ever of developing a lasting peace with Israel and who spit on all attempts to do so. He was much like CAIR in that he said one thing to us but did an entirely different thing in his own country. For this he wins the nobel peace prize. His actions have irrevocably scarred the Palestinian people. He taught them that all the poverty and degradation was not the fault of his own corruption, but of the jews. It was the classic bait and switch. Don't pay attention to me stealing the money and the food that was intended for you over here, look over across the border at the Jews who have so much. He used their ignorance to further his own agenda and died a billionaire while his people lived in squalor. He played the propaganda game beautifully and was able to turn his own evils into the fault of the jews, even to our eyes.

So, what about those Jewish terrorist actions. Again, not so simply answered. As to whether they exist, they almost certainly do. If you're fighting a 50 year war, you're not always going to do things that make you proud. And no doubt there are Jews that are just as fanatical as the Muslims in their desire to wipe out the opposing side. But as with everything else thinking this is the reason for all the strife is overly simplistic and dangerous. I've already discussed how near 50 years of almost constant war in one form or another have led many Israelis to a very militaristic mindset and I'm sure some commanders and generals have been overzealous in the execution of their duties. Such things are not to be tolerated and for the most part aren't. Just as with the Muslims, your average Jew does not want ever present war and the warmongers who get in office don't last long. Atrocities are committed, deaths occur that could have been avoided, but it has historically been the Jews who have made the steps to trying to find a lasting peace. They have been seriously flawed in many of their attempts, wanting much and not giving enough and they should and have been reprimanded for that, but it is them you see time and time again coming first to the negotiating table, not the Palestinians.

If it seems like I still lean towards the Israeli position as opposed to that of the Palestinians, that is why. I no longer believe that any of this has anything to do with God, that is just their own delusion. Now I look at past events and who has done more for the cause of peace and that would be the Jews. The Palestinians have not united as a whole and seriously sought a lasting cease fire, ever. Everything was a lull before the next attack could begin. They sought cease fires when they needed time to regroup then would use even the smallest slight to reignite hostilities. Even during this current one that just ended (story on Yahoo 2 days ago) they were tunneling under the border in to Israel to start their attacks anew. Meanwhile they were tunneling under the border with Egypt to smuggle weapons in. Their reason for breaking the cease fire? Israel found the tunnels and destroyed them.

The new leader of the Palestinian Authority seems to truly want peace and as such is under constant threat of assassination. One hopes that his way of thinking prevails and that those who voted in Hamas will see the error of their ways and it does seem to be how things are going. In the Yahoo article I mentioned it said that something like 74% of the Palestinians wanted an extension to the cease fire. The average muslim there wants peace, wants to be able to work and raise their family but that I can see, they don't want it enough. They are not yet willing to overthrow their own corrupt leaders to see the cause of peace carried out. That's not something you nor I nor the U.N. can do for them, they have to do it themselves. This same problem is present in Iran. The people there, many of them, they don't like their cruel and viscous overlords but would resent any attempt at a foreign power intervening, even on their own behalf. Until they can unite and rise up against it, they will forever be under the thumb of the mullahs. Palestine is the same. Until they learn to see past the propaganda and rhetoric of Hamas they will continue to suffer. The embargo is devastating to the people there and I am sympathetic to that but I also no the cost of lifting it while Hamas still has control.

Until the Palestinian people realize that the cause of their suffering is, for the most part, the fault of their own sadistic leaders this conflict will go on indefinitely.

So I hope this clears up a few things. I side with Israel more often than not because they are the regions best hope for a lasting peace. Palestine has not shown itself capable of living along side Israel and until they do we're stuck in this same circle jerk for the foreseeable future.

-S-

 

Thanks Shake, looks like you were at the keyboard a while.

Happy Winter Solstice and may you, Leila and Baby Shake have a healthy and prosperous New Year..

 

ShakeZula ..... A+ well said.

 

Well written piece ShakeZula but I'm afraid no it does not clear things up for me because I still think you are concentrating far too much on Israel's side of the story and far to eager to blame the lack of progress towards peace on the Palestinians.

I'll be back in a few minutes with somethings I think you are unaware of or deliberately side stepping.

(I figured out how to steal internet from the company man out here).

 

Look i am a christian i suppose but i know that not all actually most id say muslims arent bad at all its just the stupid ones that follow the people like obama bin laden lol obama any ways its the ones like that that give you muslims bad reps and it doesent help that they are muslims that do crazy shit like 911 and all that but guess What!!!


Barack Hussien Obama how the fuck did a guy with that fucking name win is it just because he was black or what i mean damn all he said was we will change all we need is hope and change and believe in change WHAT THE FUCK hes some young turd with no experience compared to a war hero name john sidney mccain who stayed with his fellow soldiers in thte shit hole that was vietnam i just dont see how people could be so damn stupid

 

I'll have to tackle this piece meal because I've got to get out every few minutes to blow down my lines and sand traps to keep them from freezing.

And I'll leave the religious ideology out and just stick to the politics.

This is not true. I see the problems on both sides of the issue but maintain that the scales have always been tilted heavily in Israel's favor and we in the West are very prone to see the Palestinians only as terrorists without knowledge or understanding of what Israel is also guilty of.

Now in my mind this is a very simplistic view of what actually happened. You act as if Israel fears the Palestinians because of what they did in the distant past. That's far to simplistic because it does not address Israel's terrorism of the Palestinians.

Here's a very small excerpt:

*not_secure_link*chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html#APPENDIX 1 Operation Kibya


The point here is that it is not a question of giving the Palestinians to much power. This is an excerpt from 1956 when Israel was actively terrorizing the Palestinian population to drive them out of Israel.

 

This transcript comes from court procedings, yes? So the commanding officer was brought up on charges, yes? I addressed this in my previous post when I said that some generals and commanders were overzealous in the execution of their duties. But it would seem to me that Jewish high command took issue with this and thus there were charges brought against him.

Try to find some court proceedings of Palestinians bringing charges against Palestinian militants for murdering civilians.

Israel takes steps to reign in it's more blood thirsty-element, Palestine, up until recently, has not.

-S-

 

And, also, you ignored what I said about how we view the past versus how they view the past. The jews do not think of their past enslavement as some distant memory that has no bearing on today. They suffered through a 1500 year battle with extinction at the hands of their Muslim overseers.To them the past is never far away and a repeat of those days of subjugation are never far from their minds. To us it is a trivial thing, decades gone. We can't even be bothered to remember things like the Democratic party was once called the White Man's party and that was only maybe three generations ago for me, maybe two for you as you have a couple of decades on me. We forget our history almost as soon as it happens but they do not. The only thing that has ever brought them a modicum of security and stability is military force and there hasn't been much coming from the Muslim side to think that they should put down their swords and pick up plows instead.

-S-

 

It's ironic that your of this intelligences and pointing out the stupidity of others, well ironic or just plain stupid. "The People Have Spoken" so stfu .

 

Fair enough Shake, but now you try to imagine being driven off your land, seeing your friends and loved ones massacred, and then growing up generation after generation if refugee camps when no one in the world wants to listen to your plight. No one sees the unfairness of the West backing Israel at all costs and turning a blind eye to your suffering. Don't you think that would shape your attitude towards extremism? Perhaps even terrorism to get the world's attention?

Not relevant? You're kidding, right? That is the picture.

Let's not forget that the Palestinians and Jews both were living under British rule from 1917 until 1948. There was of course a great deal of feuding between the Palestinians and Jews, but then lets just say the West through the UN up and gives a nation to the Jews. Then once the state of Israel was created there was a systematic pattern of terrorism, persecution and discrimination to drive the Palestinians out and you don't consider that relevant to the over all picture.

That is the picture. And the basis for everything that is taking place today.

And if that was all the land that is in question then the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states would have no legitimate objection. But it isn't. In the first place much of the land inside Israel was simply taken from the Palestinians after Israel became a state. And secondly despite UN mandates and Israel's initial agreement Israel continues to expand into the occupied territories.

 

I can see where I'm going to have to bury you in source material just to get this through your head. Don't worry I've got plenty more.

OK so the Jews can remember 1500 years but everyone else is supposed to forget that according to the Bible the Jews took over the promised land buy killing everyone that was already there.

Shake this point is really taking on an element of the ridiculous.

 

Shake why do you even try? Didn't you notice the doge of the point challenging him to show where a Palestinian court tried a Palestinian terrorist. Come to think of it, that might be hard to do, since most of them became smoke and dust when they committed the murders.

Reasoning with a person who refuses to consider anything other than his own irrelevant "wiki" cut and pastes is fruitless. Particularly when he rarely understands the substance of what he puts up.

It is more productive to argue with a rock.

 

What has any of the Middle Eastern countries ever done for themselves??? nothing. zero. zilch. the dictators and the governments do a fine job of oppressing and that is about it. The West gave them everything in terms of technology so we could give them all of our money so they in turn can blow us up? to all of you apologists...Dkr
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Prior to 1956 Egypt violated international agreements when they blocked Israeli ships from using the Suez Canal. In 1956 after Egypt nationalized the canal, Britain and France began an invasion of Egypt known as the Sinai Campaign, to reopen the critical trade route. The Israelis began ground operations in Egypt as support for the British and French, most of what the Arab world (and Stumbler) call acts of Israeli terrorism were skirmishes in this little war. The Egyptians lost and the canal was reopened.

Since that campaign there have been at least three wars started with Egypt at the head, they have lost every one of them.

Get the facts straight.